Two twists of irony undergird these tragedies.
One, February 14th has been declared V-Day, by a global movement to end domestic violence against women and girls in the countries where both these husbands originated (Afghanistan and Pakistan). Both examples of extreme domestic violence occurred on American soil, where at the very least, the men will dearly pay for their inability to keep their fists and knives away from their wives’ bodies.
Perhaps the Afghani consular thought his diplomatic immunity covered beating up his wife for fifteen hours straight? Didn’t anyone tell him that when you go to America, you have to play by their rules? Did he forget that he is representing both a country and a religion?
Mohammed Fagirad, 30, brutalized his wife from about 8:30 a.m. Wednesday until nearly midnight. During the attack, Fagirad bit, slapped, choked and beat the 22-year-old woman with a belt, pushed her down a flight of stairs and sat on her chest, prosecutors said. At one point, prosecutors said, Fagirad threw his wife up against a wall, held her there by the neck and then let her drop to the floor, where he beat her with a belt.
Fagirad told police his “wife was a dog and he was going to treat her like a dog,” prosecutors said.
When Fagirad left the home, his wife fled and went to the 109th Precinct stationhouse, where she filed a domestic violence report, prosecutors said.
I was waiting for person of like faith to blog about this next one, as I know is isn’t fun to have someone from another religion point out the sins of a fellow believer (a la Ted Haggart, or the women who drown their kids, for me).
But since no one did, here is the other horrifically ironic example of pre-Valentine domestic violence:
Orchard Park police are investigating a particularly gruesome killing, the beheading of a woman, after her husband — an influential member of the local Muslim community — reported her death to police Thursday…
Muzzammil Hassan is the founder and chief executive officer of Bridges TV, which he launched in 2004, amid hopes that it would help portray Muslims in a more positive light.
“Obviously, this is the worst form of domestic violence possible,” Erie County District Attorney Frank A. Sedita III said today. Authorities say Aasiya Hassan recently had filed for divorce from her husband. “She had an order of protection that had him out of the home as of Friday the 6th [of February],” Benz said.
So he went from building bridges of understanding to underlining the very worst ‘misconceptions’ about Muslim men there could be. Rather than removing stereotypes, he validated them, set them in stone, cast them in steel.
Was he so shamed by her going to the authorities to protect her life and a lawyer for divorce that the only way out was to kill her? Leave their two young children motherless and left with the knowledge their only parent left was the one who put her to death?
If there was no way out but for him to end her life (sarc/on), couldn’t he have just shot her like every other normal American husband? Did it not cross his mind that in doing so it would be just another regular, run-of-the-mill case of spousal murder? Perhaps he wasn’t thinking about his ’cause’, Bridges TV, attempting to portray Muslims in a more favorable light?
Obviously not, as he chose the most commonly Islamic-extremist connected mode of death there is: beheading. Agonizing, blood-spattering-horror-flick-like brutality.
Is no one out there outraged? Please don’t get tired of denouncing such acts. I just googled to see if CAIR issued a statement, and saw nothing. Pages and pages of blogs covering it, but not one except “Muslims Against Sharia” sounded like a Muslim writing it.
No one can blame the media for mis-portraying Islam when two men who know better, who were chosen and financially backed to represent their country and faith, act in such viciously heinous ways.
while we would be right to denounce these crimes (as Muslims), and while they will get what’s coming to them…I think the Muslim world is still waiting to hear denouncements from the western world for it’s many, many, many crimes in our region, most of which make these two cases seem like child’s play.
the gang rape of 14 year old abeer qasim by american soldiers comes to mind.
I agree with Nas, and while they both deserve to be punished in a “civilized” way, for their uncivilized crimes, I don’t think that summing up their identities to being “Muslim” is fair, even if they’re advocating understanding, in the collective sense, what they did was an individual act on their own behalf, since we’re speaking about justice here. Violence against women has nothing to do with religious affiliation, it’s an international dilemma that transcends religion and culture, you can find it in the US like you find it in India, but never are the aggressors identified by their religious affiliation for the simple reason of it being irrelevant.
A quick observation, you said that you waited for someone of like faith to blog about one of the pieces you mentioned, I’m not sure why you assume that it should’ve been addressed by another muslim, not because it shouldn’t but because it has nothing to do with being a muslim, it’s like me expecting you to blog about a murder in Sydney, because you’re christian!
These (alleged) acts are atrocious and I hope that they are prosecuted to the fullest and convicted if guilty. I am not sure why CAIR should issue a statement about the incidents. While they were Muslims, they are not representing Muslim norms in the least and I think there are many such incidents to warrant CAIR to pick these out and say anything. I am sure those who work for CAIR, and I know one rep in LA who certainly would be against this, as are most Muslims. It is a pity. We have enough of these incidents here in Jordan to worry about. It is not just a Muslim thing as was mentioned. I will pray for those women and hope they will get their justice.
A crime is a crime. Categorize and file in whatever ways you like, the fact is that these are criminal acts. Tagging a religion to them, or any other label obstructs the truth and brutality of the actions.
In a diverse country like the US, and in news writing in specific, referring to one’s identity according to his religion especially when it’s connected to such extreme acts is for me unacceptable. I consider such pieces of news “defamatory and discriminatory”. You would never find a piece of news that says a Christian did such and such.
Only Mormons are treated almost the same way when it comes to news writing.
This annoying emphasis on the men’s religion only indicates what you have put forth later “It only underlines the misconception about Islam” and I mean the wording of the news piece not the news piece itself. Why didn’t they refer to them using their citizenship for example? Or even country of origin?
So the question becomes: What is it with the west and Islam? I can’t believe that the west expects each Muslim to fully represent Islam? Same as we don’t except each Jew to represent Judaism and each Christian to represent Christianity?
So it a deliberate and well orchestrated media plan to directly or indirectly associate Islam with extremism and cold blooded criminality.
Usually I enjoy reading your blog, and I’ve been a silent follower, but somehow, this post prompted me to comment.
I’m so glad you mentioned these crimes. I haven’t seen mention of them anywhere except on non-liberal websites and news organizations.
As long as I wont hit/kill both as human and Muslim then I couldn’t give a toss about another person. Islam has nothing to do with this, domestic abuse happens in every culture.
Men who hit their wife have no value to society or their religion! Islam never said hit your wife, it clearly says to treat them with respect – and that what I take at the end of day.
So when a western man beat his wife and kills her it’s abnormal but a Muslim – OMG what a shock, the horror … Please get over yourself! Like I said domestic abuse is in every culture so Islam isn’t related but as humans we are related… stop generalizing Islam.
yeah, i’m outraged. and the relativism argument is so old. the evidence speaks for itself:
http://www.meforum.org/article/2067
Hi Kinzi– CAIR is a civil right’s organization working on behalf of American Muslims, so this is not their forte. Still, in their daily digest, which I received today, they circulated a statement by the Islamic Society of North America which is more concerned with these kind of issues relating to general Muslim life in the US. ISNA is the largest Muslim American org and the oldest institution representing Muslims in the US.
The statement is by ISNA’s VP and a local imam in our community who is very active in the area of domestic violence [read it here: http://www.isna.net/articles/News/RESPONDING-TO-THE-KILLING-OF-AASIYA-HASSAN-AN-OPEN-LETTER-TO-THE-LEADERS-OF-AMERICAN-MUSLI.aspx.
In fact, a campaign is being launched in the aftermath of this tragedy to have Muslim imams all over the US dedicate this Friday's sermon to the issue of domestic violence [http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=54807221754&ref=nf].
Regardless, I don’t think Muslims need to apologize on behalf of this kind of criminal. I don’t see churches apologizing every time a murder or rape takes place every few minutes across the US. What we need to do is continue raising awareness about domestic violence which is a problem that pervades the American society regardless of faith, ethnicity, or race.
Sorry, but that ME Forum linked above has an agenda I don’t want to explore. Good grief.
Nas, they will get what is coming, but the reputations of loving Muslim husbands will be tarnished and getting what they do NOT deserve as a result of these men’s actions. Your next sentence was kindof a red herring, was it not?
I’ll be happy to post about Abeer Qasim, I hope to interview a high-ranking local US military member so the denunciation will be even more appropriate.
Ammar, I’ll address the first part of your comment below. Why did I wait for a Muslim to address it? Because I would rather hear a denunciation from someone who has a faith connection rather than a rabid atheist like Pat Condell.
You will note I have never asked this before about any other crime committed by someone who happens to be a Muslim. It was the nature of the crime, and the husband’s complete lack of disregard for how his actions would affect the world’s perceptions of his faith.
Um Omar, I mentioned CAIR for two reasons: one, CAIR Pennsylvania awarded this man with a special distinction in 2007. Two, I didn’t know of any other organization. Thanks so much for the email with the denunciation I was looking for. I posted it earlier, very appropriate and well done.
Nadine, I will address that below.
Dawn, thanks for being reader and coming forward with your articulate comment. Hope we can come to an understanding. Were you by chance the founding editor of VIVA? I will address your concerns below.
Marvin, the crimes are of interest to me since I work with abuse victims here in Jordan.
Sabeur, I appreciate the man of true honor that you are, you will make a great husband. I’m not sure what you mean to get over myself?
Moi, thanks so much for the ISNA statement. It was exactly what I was looking for. I didn’t say Muslims need to apologize, goodness no, but denouncing the action is a very important thing to do, as evidenced by the speed, tone and wording of the ISNA statement. I do believe that churches and Christian orgs have both denounced and apologized when their more famous members kill, extort, abuse, or commit sexual excess.
Umm Farouq, I read the ME link, it was something indeed. I hope to explore who is behind and what the agenda is later.
OK, all, hope I can delineate my responses:
1) This killing would be another ho-hum case of domestic violence IF he had not chosen to behead her. The manner of murder elevates the profile of the murderer.
2) Like it or not, beheading is a form of killing that is linked to Islam due to it’s overuse by Muslim extremists in at least five countries I can think of off-hand. Just last week a Polish man was beheaded.
4) The husband was a very high-profile Muslim. He had many financially supporting his station and vision. People in places of influence come under greater scrutiny of media.
5) The husband was highly influential in desiring to change perceptions of Muslims. He horribly misused his influence, and whatever good he did through Bridges TV is undone.
6) Islam already has a huge image problem in regards to domestic violence. The propensity of the problem makes the religious aspect of it very relevent.
(back in a flash, I hope)
Perception:
Whether we like it or not, whether we agree or not, other people’s perceptions of our faith WILL be defined by the actions of those who practice it. Especially if high-profile people have public failures. Faith will be linked to action, as shown by:
Mormons known for polygamy
Hindus known for burning widows
Catholics known for pedophile priests
Scientology known for Tom Cruise’s excesses
Jehovah’s Witness’ known for refusing blood transfusions resulting in children dying
Evangelical Christians known for the sexual indiscretions of those who denounce the very acts from their pulpits (Ted Haggart, Jimmy Baker)
(Dawn, it isn’t only Muslims and Mormons. Media is full of secular writers who blame all the world’s ills on whatever religion du jour is angering them. The point is not their love for pointing out our sins, but giving them LESS to report.)
SO, I hope that helps.
I am quite concerned about this, as my faith as a Christian is lumped in with ‘religious extremists’ as well. It doesn’t do us any good to say “That isn’t us!”.
What DOES do good is owning the problems as the ISNA has done in their statement, then using the furor to provoke change.
When we are willing to wash and air our dirty laundry, no one else will smell it and tell others first.
Kinzi: all of your points sound reasonable in theory, yet none of them can be logically applied here in return for logical reasoning. In other words, we are back to square man where because this man is a muslim, and in one of these cases a high-profile one, his religion is therefore connected to the crime and therefore both he and his religion are hung out to dry when only one of them was the actual killer.
It doesn’t add up. Because there is a tendency by western audiences to, as someone stated earlier, generalize the religion. To throw every action of every Muslim under the banner of a religion and the world doesn’t work that way.
As for domestic violence, rape, crime and all that jazz, while a great deal of it is under-reported in our part of the world, I would argue that the western world faces it at similar levels if not greater. I would wager that gun violence in the US alone would probably outweigh in volume the entire Arab world. But I’m not going to attribute or link those crimes to Christianity just because the majority of that hemisphere follows that religion.
And by the way, we should also avoid linking misused systems with the religion. The US and China still execute minors and those executions are part of a legitimate system supported by a constituency.
The truth is, the western media loves this crap. That’s how easy this all boils down to. When something like this happens, there is a feeding frenzy and to me it is no more a legitimate reflection of Islam than Pat Robertson at the Israeli-Lebanese border urging Zionist troops to kill “evil mozlums” back in 2006 or the 1 million other racist things done in the name of Christianity.
Unless either of these guys beat up or killed their wives in a deceleration that this was done in the name of Islam or the “Islamic way”, then, by “American rules” as you put it earlier, he’s just another killer and she’s just another victim.
The religion isn’t a variable in that equation.
Kinzi, your argument sounds fair in terms of the negative effect the minority causes on the majority, but that’s only true if one accepts stereotypes, which I believe is what the “faith known with action” list you’ve mentioned, and as you said, those stereotypes exist whether we like it or not, but does their harsh/odd/disgraceful appearence reflect the true meaning of the faith itself, I think the answer to that is No, and you know it.
This argument might be true to those who already have a set of convenient stereotypes they use to “expose” the vices in the “other” faith/s and prove -to their own selves more than anyone- the virtue and superiority of their system of belief, based on a superficial knowledge of those “others”.
Again, my respect for Christianity isn’t affected by those priests who molest children, nor do I question the virtue of its values when I see the complete silence of Christian “high profiles” at the massaces of children in Gaza last month, or to a more relevant degree, the shelling of the church of the nativity in 2002, for example. That “Perception” isn’t valid as it would refelct a shallow pass of judgement based on what I want to believe, not what is true.
Quite the lively conversation, as could be expected… Please allow me to join in the conversation, knowing that it raises passions.
I guess that, in this instance, Kinzi and I would perhaps be best served to speak to the American mind-set. And, for Americans, there are only two types of people I ever have heard of in modern times beheading people. Serial killers (who go beyond all expectation and understanding of human behavior) and Muslim extremist terrorists.
For someone who is trying to build understanding, choosing such a loaded, stereotypical method of harming his wife is especially unfortunate. Because, let’s be realistic the moment a person sets himself up as a leader is the moment that their private life become public and the moment it will be held against everyone practicing the same religion.
Jimmy Swaggart’s downfall wasn’t about his relationship with a prostitute, it was about the fact that he set himself up as a religious leader. And, I assure you that when his downfall occurred, it occurred in public with much trumpeting of the fact the he is a Christian.
The shame here is that this man’s choice further damaged perception of his faith. He erased the work he was supposedly trying to do. While, oh why, couldn’t he simply have beat her to death, like most abusive spouses in the US do? Had he done so, this definitely wouldn’t have been news. Sadly, violence against women (and the weak in general) is not limited to a single religion, country, or group. However, the response to that violence in crucial.
I was very much encouraged to see ISNA’s response to this outrageous action. It calls for supporting women who live in fear of abuse, it calls for educating young men who desire to marry. This is exactly what I would hope to see. Because, whether we like it or not, violence (in general) and an almost blase acceptance of it seems culturally (rather than religiously) inherent in this region. The Christians prefer to believe it’s a “Muslim” thing and the Muslims prefer to believe it’s a “Christian” thing. It just a thing. And it’s a thing we should be looking to eradicate. End of story.
And, unlike others, the Catholic Church’s response to the issue of pedophile priests DID influence my opinion of the institution. Not the religion, but the human side of its implementation. The reality is that Christianity, Islam, Judaism – all may be fine, in theory.
However, as members of each community, we must accept that how we as humans represent the religion creates the stereotype. They are typically never wholly accurate, but they are a reflection of some portion of the practicing base. And, when the practicing base has a particular problem that is epidemic in its ranks, the community must own the problem. This is what the Catholic Church failed to do. As a Christian, I am horrified by this failure and accept that although it is not MY church, it caused negative perception of Christians around the world.
For this reason, I don’t hang either a fish or a cross on my car. I am VERY human in the car and have no desire to set myself as the model Christian when driving. I pray for patience and understanding, but am still far too human.
So, while it is easier to step back and let “society” take care of the problem of domestic violence and abuse, who is better equipped or has more responsibilty than religion? Who should be preaching the standard and providing positive examples? Who should be condemning these acts if not the Imams, Priests, and people of faith? And, whether the issue is a cultural one or a religious one, we should accept it as a faith community and condemn it in the strongest terms. We should find paths to eradicate it. And we should refuse to accept the denial that comes so easily that it’s someone else, some other faith’s problem. It is our problem. Each and every one of us.
And, here’s my hope that the next time some Pakistani guy chooses to kill his wife in the US, he’ll select a method less inflammatory. And the next guy who imprisons his wife beat her for 15 hours uses less inflammatory rhetoric to talk about it. Actually, my hope is that with all of the resources we can bring to bear, there won’t be a next time. But if there is…
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Nas:
Your generalizing too much by saying ”the Muslim world is still waiting to hear denouncements from the western world for it’s many, many, many crimes in our region”
The west did not rape the 14 years old girl, it is a couple of American soldiers and it is them to blame not us.
If we ever want to live together peace we should stop such labeling of ”us” and ”them”.
Ammar:
Aggression and violence is natural, Humans have always been and will always be violent and that is why you see such acts in all societies and cultures.
The difference is that some religious and cultural structures are better than others at preventing people from acting in this manner to solve problems.
As civilized people we want more of these lifestyles and less of the ineffective ones.
If you are claiming that your culture/religion is one of the best ones at preventing such behaviors then you have a lot of explaining to do when it comes to such news stories and statistics, which is not an easy job, and ignoring or blindly claiming that your religion/culture has nothing to do with these acts will not fix the problem.
Um Omar, Nadien, Dawn:
One can clearly draw a relationship between the nature of these crimes and the background of the people committing them, Why is it usually Muslims behind such acts? why don’t we as often hear of Scandinavians or Japanese people committing such crimes as often as Muslims do?
This pattern allows to connect the dots and make such conclusions.
Sabeur:
Correction, the Quran clearly tells you to hit your wife if she rebels you:
Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God’s guarding. And those (women) you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against
them; God is All-high, All-great.
Surah 4:34 (Arberry English Translation)
Nas, I don’t believe we can reasonably apply logic to something as liquid as perceptions. But in this case, I do see it clearly: the key element that is missing from your first paragraph is what does logically connect the crime to the faith: beheading. This manner of death is inextricably to linked to the cry of “Allahu Akbar” in dozens of previous cases, effectively implicating Islam. I am deeply saddened that words giving praise to God’s greatness are so mis-used and cheapened.
It’s not fair, at all, but it is based on the actions of those who claim to be true followers and do such things in the name of Islam. This murderer did not, but his manner of violence renewed the perception. It wasn’t primarily his profile, or his faith that made this news, it was his method. If he had just shot her, religion would not have been involved in the equation.
I also believe the hypocrisy of his founding of Bridges TV made it news.
That is the difference why people are not linking Christianity to the rate of violent crime in America. I think the things that would link violent crime in the US are drugs, gangs. A major difference in your example is that no Christians followed Pat Robertson’s cry to kill Muslims (I don’t read his stuff, did not know he said such an evil thing).
Media has a feeding frenzy over ANY failures of people of ANY faith. MommaBean googled ‘pastor kills wife’ and got five stories, all of which made the Christian faith an issue. It is hypocrisy again, when those who preach a way of life don’t live it. If a pastor kills his wife, (or a church leader’s wife kills her kids) I do hope it makes the front page and other men & women who might have the fear of God and media instilled.
MommaBean and I discussed at length how she and I are perceiving this differently than you and others. We view it through different eyes.
Kinzi, you do not need to apologize to anyone for it is your freedom to express your opinion freely, specially when your observations are spot on.
P.S. What are atheists and agnostics known for (negative aspect)?
Nas:
The US and Sweden for example have better trained police forces, crime scene investigators, detectives, courts, lawyers and judges than the average Muslim country, which makes most of the crimes committed revealed and addressed by the press.
So you have to put into count that such crimes in Muslim countries are not discovered and addressed as much as they are in the west which means that they are not covered on the same level.
There is a strong relationship between such crimes and people with the similar background, the evidence is there, denying it won’t help you, sooner or later you will have to face it and the sooner the better.
Ammar:
So you guys seem to have a thing for denying!
Then explain why is it so that people with a similar background commit such crimes a lot more than other people with different backgrounds and believes?
The statistics show that, and there must be a reason, finding that reason is a good step forward, denying that fact won’t get you anywhere.
Ammar, you know I live here and for the most part, like living as a minority. Most of the people I choose to have in my circle of friends are the ‘normal’ everyday God-fearing Muslims with whom I sometimes share more in common than Americans who are more secular.
BUT, these are the ones I choose to befriend, and it took me ten years here before I had such a circle. Sadly, some of those I have to rub shoulders with on a regular basis scare the hell out of me and live straight out of stereotypes. Abu Mahjoob wouldn’t have quite the impact if his characterizations weren’t a little too close for comfort. This is not based on what I ‘want’ to believe, it’s reality.
You are sure i know the “true meaning of the faith”? There are times that the more I learn the more I don’t like it. Then I grab the hand of some of my JO OR US Muslim friends for a version of Islam I can live with. We have a level of mutual respect without the need to play ‘superior’. Or read bloggers like you and Nas. How you all live out your faith is what I ‘want’ to believe about Islam. That may be shallow or ‘superficial’ to you, but it is how I navigate life in Jordan.
MommaBean, thanks so much for your input. I appreciate it. You connected well that the sin of one branch of Christianity affects us all. My poor Catholic priest bro-in-law has to deal with the sins of other priests DAILY, he can’t hug a child without someone wondering if he is a pedophile.
Imagine the good press when people of faith do take action to end domestic violence. Let it be, Lord.
Bam, thanks for the link. I think :O! In answer to your question, I think freedom of speech should be very free. But you probably knew that.
Nizar, well, um, I guess it is only fitting to have your input as well. You make me test my commitment to free speech here!
Nizar and Kinzi and everyone reading, Here’s my idea in a nut-shell: I don’t deny the horrific happenings done by Muslims in the name of Islam, they do exist and are taking center stage over everything good Muslims and Islam have to offer.
I’m a follower of the Islam that accepts the other, not because we’re “superior” as some might have deducted from my previous comment, but because God created us different, and this diversity is what makes our existance interesting in terms of having the power to choose what we want, even in religion.
Punishment is a small fraction of Islam, and it’s taking promenance over Enlightenment because as history repeats itself, these are dark ages, and unfortunately the ignorant among the muslims are much more vocal than the enlightened, and by ignorance I mean the shallow understanding of true Islam, putting aside the ideals of Free thought, Knowledge and tolerence, some might be smirking and thinking of examples of the opposite to all I’ve said above, but that’s fine, I’m a Muslim who’s still learning about life, love and tolerence, from Islam, and arguing about this in comments for posts is voiding it from its value, at least to me, with all due respect to everyone.
Thanks Ammar, excellent nut-shell, and for clarifying your context of ‘shallow’ and ‘superiority’. Just so you know, I wasn’t smirking at any point (this whole event has had me in a very serious state of mind), and I value your passion for those ideals as manifested in your faith. I haven’t felt like we were arguing; maybe leaning forward in a discussion perhaps. In fact, your comments add, rather than void, value to faith in my estimation. thx.
Dear Kinzi…
Sorry for not answering back earlier. I needed to look up something before I reply to you.
First of all, I never worked as an editor anywhere; I picked the name Dawn because it’s the closest English word to my Arabic name, though I wish our paths have crossed when I was in Jordan.
The way the American media freedom and neutrality is going to these days saddens me.
I’m not sure if you were there during the Vietnam War, and Watergate, I wasn’t but from what I read, I concluded that fair and truthful media played two important roles in pushing to end the Vietnam War, and uncovering President Nixon & Watergate.
This type of media has been avoided since the beginning of Iraq’s invasion. No-one wants to portray the American Army as a bunch of psychopaths who commit unspeakable crime under the justification of it being war atrocities.
The misconception and the unjust associations you spoke of even if they existed they are not as strong as the association of Arabs or Muslims with extremism and fundamentalism through the American media.
When the CNN covered the Orchard Park story, Wolf Blitzer went out of his way to emphasize that the husband is a prominent Muslim figure and that he beheaded his wife.
Decapitation or what you referred to as the most commonly Islamic-extremist connected mode of death there is, is of Latin origins, the word “Caput” in Latin means head. It has also been the chosen death mode throughout the French revolution, but I doubt that at any given time, crimes that were committed and marked with the separation of the head from the body were connected to anything but Islam “as religion”.
Today Eric Holder, the first black attorney general of the US, said: the country despite advances essentially remains “a nation of cowards” on racial issues, with most Americans avoiding candid discussions on matters of race. Even though he was talking about the Black community, his words do apply to other different races, religious groups and ethnicities.
The Holy Quran has taught me “Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another”
An-Najm 38. Thus, whatever sin someone commits is not to be spread among his brothers, family, tribe, or any follower of his religion.
After 9/11 it’s been extremely annoying for us to be stereotyped as extreme, just because of our looks, attire and the way our men wear their facial hair.
The fact that such wrongful judgments and stereotypes exists in a country like the United States, and that now they are staged, promoted, and deliberately communicated throughout the media makes it even a bigger problem.
Intellect is unfortunately being lost.
I apologize for the long reply.
I would add to Dawn’s argument about the media: The case of the Israeli tennis player whom was denied entry visa to compete in a tournament; she was a guest on all the news networks, wolf Blitzer spent 10 minutes describing the case and talking to the poor thing. Now, what about the thousands of Iraqi translators? Ok, what about the Palestinians who can’t leave their homes? What about the largest prison on earth aka Gaza?
If we want to draw parallels there are many, but lets leave it here..
A stat: infidelity among married US women is at 33%, can we generalize that on the Christian society in the US? Also divorce is at 50% can we say that Christianity failed to address the marriage issue properly?
I hope you can see the point I am trying to make. and please be more considerate in you choice of key words-that is if you want your arguments to be respected.
You chose: Islam, Regional Issues, abuse, activism, evil, women’s issues. The story wasn’t regional in the geographical terms so we can take that out-unless you mean that violence against women is more widespread in our region which by chance is mostly Muslim? If so then I suggest to go and do some research. Activism is about your efforts, that leaves us with Islam, evil, abuse, women’s issues, Do I see a pattern here?
BTW, I am not in a state of denial, and I know how many problems we face but I refuse to associate wrong doing and evil with race, religion, and region.
Hi Dawn, thanks so much for the thought you put into it, I know time like that is rare for mommies. I’m going into mommy-mode myself so I’ll get back to you tomorrow.
Mohanned, sigh. I am sorry both that I provoke you to so, and that you have the ability to sadden me that you do. It would be nice to actually have a civil conversation some day. You first comment was cushioned by the smiley. It will take me some time to sift through everything you brought up this time, related and unrelated to the topic.
I don’t see this as an uncivilized conversation. And with regards to related unrelated: What about beheading and allahu akbar? Oh, that is your perception, thus it makes it related?
http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2009/02/american-muslims-call-for-swif.html
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Dawn, I am still in mommy-mode, (birthday party in process) thx for waiting.
Mohanned, ‘civil’, not ‘civilized’. Dawn was civil. I know if you were in our home and we were discussing this subject it would be different. More later, party in progress
I will eat some chocolate cake in your stead, since I can’t offer it to you.
Muslimah Media Watch, welcome and thank you for the honor of the link. That was a great list, I look forward to reading more there.
Moi, you are a great resource. I am SO blessed by the list on that link and the renewed commitment they embody.
Tough to know how to respond to this one. A lot of pitfalls on either side.
Frankly, I’m disappointed in some of the responses to Kinzi’s honest and thoughtful call to speak against this wretched violence and the hypocrisy entangled with it.
First, we need to understand each other. Many Muslims don’t understand why Westerners are suspicious of them. Why do they feel this way? Partly ignorance, partly some perceptions which are based on some truth (which will lead me into my second point). Westerners also don’t generally understand why Muslims see us as the aggressors in Palestine, Iraq and elsewhere.
Likewise, many Muslims don’t understand Westerners. Many see the West as incredibly wealthy and morally decadent. Again, partly ignorance (they haven’t seen my hometown!), and partly based on some truth.
My second point is on the difference between an image problem and a reality problem. As a Christian, when leaders like Ted Haggard or Jimmy Swaggart are caught in shameful sins they have personally preached against, or when priests are exposed as molesters, that is more than just an image problem, it is a reality problem. Christian leaders are not adequately keeping themselves from such sins, resisting temptation, etc. Can it lead to an image problem? It certainly has in the case of the Catholic Church, but the reality is more problematic than the negative image.
Now, it’s often been acknowledged by Muslims that they have an image problem in the West. They are often associated with extremism, violence and ill treatment of women. What I don’t see (and I think Kinzi is calling for) is acknowledgment of any problem beyond an image one. While there are many, many Muslims who are kind and gracious people, a good number aren’t, and their misdeeds come to light.
The final point is one of motivation. Are Christians who commit heinous sexual sins, or abusing family members, stating that the Christian faith teaches this or that they are motivated by their Christian faith? No. Are some mis-guided Christians motivated by their faith to support violence against Palestinians? Yes. And Muslims and other Arabs should be upset about this. Many Christians speak against those ideas and try to persuade them otherwise, including myself.
America was attacked by a group of men whose only common link and whose stated motivation was Islam. You may disagree with them, but you shouldn’t minimize the impact this has had on the West. Those Muslims believe the Qur’an teaches violence against unbelievers. Likewise many Muslim men believe the Qur’an teaches violence against difficult wives. I think most Muslims who follow this blog disagree. I don’t know any of you, but I think you are peace-loving, kind people, like SO MANY of the Jordanians I’ve meant. Maybe you can’t fathom how people could actually believe ugly things about the religion that you hold dear and in which you find beauty. But in my opinion you need to acknowledge the fact that those people are out there, and work at changing their minds. Change the reality.
And I also think that you will make a lot of progress in changing Islam’s image in the West by not only denying that Islam teaches distasteful things, but by proving it, as many of you are already working to do. Show us that your life of peace, charity and justice is motivated by Islam. Explain to us what you believe in your heart, and we will listen. ~ Abu Tulip
Abu Tulip, thanks for coming alongside and articulating some of what I intended. This is taking much more thought and time than I have to spare, so I appreciate your addition while I process it all and research some points.
Mohanned, sorry, still recovering from birthday party. I don’t think I am the only person who perceives that connection. And no, I don’t consider the level of sarcasm you use to be ‘civil’ conversation.
I’m a pollyanna at heart.
To me, it does not add to respectful and productive dialogue, and detracts from the message. Craig can be very sarcastic too, but he doesn’t direct it at me. Not that you care, but it does hurt my feelings
The way Dawn writes draws me in to her words, connects me to her message. do you talk to your American co-workers like you you do on blogs? @@ I’m not mad at you, just want to explain how I experience you here.
So if enough people percieve something this makes it true? And if those people are biased because of their beliefs and ignorance it makes it “more” true?
I guess then it is true that perception is reality! As for the civil uncivil argument, I still don’t see anything uncivil, oh well, that’s my perception of civil! I also don’t see why you have to bring up the “way I talk to my american co-wrokers”! You real question is: Do you lack manners?
And If I am that bad of an “experience” then I guess I: Adios.
Mohanned, don’t go away mad, and don’t go away. Khalto, YES, you could polish your manners. You have good things to say, but it’s like dancing with a porcupine. Shall I take a straw poll among the mommy readers?
I did some straw polling today among some Europeans and Americans, btw. About 20. All live in Jordan, varying degrees of religiosity. Here’s what I asked: “Did you hear about the man who beheaded his wife in New York last week?” Most had NOT heard, did you know the story wasn’t even on several major news outlets?
First question “Was he a Muslim?”. 100%. It’s. Not. Just. Me. Unless, of course, we are all biased and ignorant.
Of course we are all biased, it is human nature..I don’t know what outlets are you talking about, but let me tell you this: It was all over the place here, with your favorite conservative pundits winking and smiling..You see, for them, their audience get their message, they don’t have to spell the beans, it is like encryption that everyone gets..You can’t say what is politically incorrect, but you can hint. Also, don’t forget that the conservative media outlets are now busy with the stimulus package- bohooo socialism is on the rise
Now, you didn’t answer my questions: What about infidelity and divorce? Can we extrapolate on these stats? Can we reach conclusions? If we did, wouldn’t that be wrong?
“You could polish your manners.” Really? Did I hurt your feelings? Because I thought your choice of keywords for this post to be a little bit over the top?
You can be less prejudicial and biased, and no need for the Stockholm syndrome arguments.. Maybe the syndrome is a step in your path of enlightenment and the lessening of your bias
BTW, I am not mad at all..
(Dawn, below is part of what I wanted to respond to you with)
Mohanned, as I have been googling around looking for stuff to respond to Dawn with, I did run across who carried it and when. I read it on Friday on NRO, Fox didn’t cover it until Monday, CNN on Tuesday. ABC, NPR and WaPo didn’t, and I didn’t see it on Kos.
Not even all my favorite conservative pundits carried it. They are pretty carried away with the porkulus package coverage
. Neither NRO nor Instapundit had any commentary at all, Michelle Malkin had a remark that Ted Haggart and the guy with the Teletubbies obsession would get more MSM press. She was right. Google ‘beheading New York” ad see what you get.
Encryption…do you mean like at Huff Po when all they have to say is “Republican” and we all know they mean right-wing/neo-con/anti-choice/knuckle-dragging mouth breathers?
I was waiting on the infidelity and divorce statistics to come from churches I have attended. Why? As the divorce stats nationwide are nothing like our circles of friends. In our young married group in Chicago, there were 70 couples. Eighteen years later, three have divorced, and our group had the highest divorce rate in a church of 3-4,000 members.
People can say they are Christians in a poll, but what makes them ‘Christian’ is if they love God enough to obey the rules. Jesus said “If you love Me, obey My commands”. If they don’t attend church or are in fellowship regularly, serve in ministry, give generously, then they aren’t truly ‘Christians’. And these are the kind who are more likely to stray and divorce. A Gallup poll once claimed that couples who prayed together daily had a one in 1,065 divorce rate. America is a secular country, not a Christian one.
Yes, I told you you hurt my feelings. I prayed, I got over it. I ate chocolate cake, that helped too.
My pain problem is that you think the worst about why I do what I do! Imputing motives that just don’t enter my mind. The thing about key words didn’t even cross my brain waves, I chose activism because I hoped this tragedy would spur some on. And it did, quickly. As Umm Zaid has said many times, there needs to be a united Muslim response to domestic violence issues in the ummah of America. Sadly, a later report mentions that the whole Muslim community was aware of the husband’s previous abuse of his wife. whether or not the guy is a Muslim, domestic violence something I am very concerned about.
You should go read Tariq Nelson’s blog. @@
As you mentioned, we are all prejudiced and biased. But remember, for me, it didn’t happen while watching Fox News in Pocatella Idaho, but as a result of living in Jordan. Among people I just happen to love, as well.
“do you mean like at Huff Po when all they have to say is “Republican” and we all know they mean right-wing/neo-con/anti-choice/knuckle-dragging mouth breathers? ”
Hell yeah
“People can say they are Christians in a poll, but what makes them ‘Christian’ is if they love God enough to obey the rules. ”
Same goes for muslims, see, thats my whole point.
“I ate chocolate cake, that helped too”
Don’t blame them pounds on me!
“You should go read Tariq Nelson’s blog.”
You should read some paul krugman books too, and maybe something for namoi klein..
“Among people I just happen to love, as well.”
We love you as well.
Dawn, I spent some time researching around, and it seems the same discussions have been provoked in many places! I found an article at Slate that supports your comments on beheading:
http://www.slate.com/id/2211593?nav=wp
But, this one underlined one of the problems that has been mulling through my mind, as it says there are two verses from the Quran that mention beheading. It seems one was in the retelling of Islamic history, but one can see where extremists go with such a thing when they take the concept of the Quran being applicable for all times. Extremists Christians are not beheading people to follow the example set by King David.
It seems Muslims from other cultures have taken an extreme interpretation and are using it a religious ‘cover’ for what they do. They are the ones who need to be corrected, then media has no fuel to slander. When American and British mosque leaders are brought in from such cultures, they multiply error.
I don’t want you and other peace-loving Muslims to bear the burden of their misdeeds, either. But that is one verse that the rest of the world doesn’t ascribe to; religions are indeed judged by those who follow them.
The second one is also one most don’t follow: in a shame/honor culture you cover a transgression, in a guilt/innocence culture, you expose it to provoke change.
The next link was one I resonated with for that very reason:
http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/moving_beyond_the_slogans/
I also read the Middle East forum link that AF supplied. Although those who publish the site are not Islam-friendly, the author has some solid statistics that are unmistakable in connection.
Whatever the connections and perceptions are, domestic violence to this degree has to stop. I appreciate what the ISNA has done, and many organizations are now running with.
Thanks for your patience, Dawn.
Mohanned, lol, can you hear me snorting?
No, I won’t blame you for the flab
I see your point, but my point is some extremists behead people, subjugate women, etc. they quote Sura and verse to say they ARE obeying the rules (ignoring other rules) and people like you are kaffir. Christians who do that stuff are going against the rules.
I read Paul Kurgman’s column and have even posted Naomi Klein. Unlike another famous Evangelical christian who likes moose, I can tell you where I read
But then again, you aren’t Katie C. THANKS BE TO GOD.
Ciao! Until the next controversy…
i am glad someone finally read the article, rather than dismiss it out of hand as putting forth an agenda. reliable data on these things are so difficult to come by. at least dr. chesler went to the trouble to try to figure out what is going on. if others have better data, then please put it forward.
AF, oh, my blog stats tell me dozens of people clicked the link from here. Reality is that everyone has an agenda, some overt, some unconscious. We all want our opinions to be shown in the best possible light.
I have learned so much by reading, rather than dismissing due to unsavory sources and connections.
First of all happy birthday to the treasured one and many happy returns, hope you had a blast.
The second thing I wanted to say, is that I should put this out loud and clear, what these two men did is a shame to humanity, and I’m glad they’ve been caught, I hope they’ll get what they deserve here in this life and in the life after.
It was the Mardi gras holiday here in the big easy and I didn’t have time to connect earlier.
I looked at what you provided as well as the time line, and regardless of when the news was aired and on which network; my argument is still about the phrasing and the words used not about the story coverage itself.
In a nutshell I feel that the media is trying it’s best to dehumanize us “Arabs and Muslims”.
I can prove it to you, or I can even tell you that it’s just the notion I get from watching TV or being tailgated by some redneck, or whenever I’m in an airport and my ticket is stamped with SSSS which is supposed to be “random”, but somehow is not.
When “In sha2 Allah” the invasion of Iraq’s ends, I do not expect people to flood the streets celebrating peace and the end of a bloody era. For I somehow feel that we’ve been stripped from our human value by W’s administration, by the biased media, through stereotyping and unlawful manipulation of simple minded population.
I can’t believe it took me this long to read the post and respond. I disagree with those who’ve responded attacking the West as perpetrators of abuse (the problem is universal) but I also share the point of view that it does not matter what religion someone has or cultural background since abusers are of every walk of life. The fact that this one abuser was a spokesperson for shedding light to Americans on what is good in Islam is no different than a priest or pastor who abuses. Domestic violence is something we should all stand against regardless of religion or culture and I know that Kinzi shares this thinking.
I think that Kinzi meant to say that Muslims should be more visible in denouncing such acts proported by other Muslims and non-Muslims just in the same way that Christians should stand up against injustice of all kinds, by all people and in all places. But it seems that people are quicker to condemn what is wrong when it is committed by those outside of one’s own religion or culture. I think that the original post came out in a way that was not intended by the author.
Two deranged individuals, Jim Sutter (supported by CAIR) and Bill Warner (claims Geert Wilders is a Nazi), are joining forces to defame Muslims Against Sharia. Before you buy into their lies and distortions, please consider the sources: http://www.phonyrev.com/ & http://insanepi.blogspot.com/.
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