I was shocked and angered to hear that George Tiller was gunned down exiting his church this morning. In church, of all places. Murder in church. Where one hears Jesus’ words that to hate someone is just like murder and to pray for those who hate you.
I can’t stand abortion, especially the late-term abortions he specialized in, but I didn’t hate him. Since my mother worked closely with abortion providers at Planned Parenthood, I know all the justifications. I loved her co-workers, and they loved me, although they were perplexed that I, ‘with such a good upbringing’, could be pro-life. I also know how it haunted my mother by what she said about her line of work when she was drunk. The abortionist she sent dozens of my classmates to was caught in the act of raping his anesthetized patients. It turned out his medical license was faked.
If this murderer turns out to be a ‘Christian’, I will be enraged. Anyone to think he is doing God’s will by executing his own justice is deceived. Tiller was acquitted in his trial, period. Vigilante justice is an oxymoron. So is someone claiming to be ‘pro-life’ and shooting to kill in the name of their cause. He has slandered the cause in the very worst way possible.
I am not celebrating, but mourning. I had prayed for him regularly, this was not what I prayed for.
WICHITA – George Tiller, the Wichita doctor who became a national lightning rod in the debate over abortion, was shot to death this morning as he walked into church services.
Tiller, 67, was shot just after 10 a.m. at Reformation Lutheran Church at 7601 E. 13th, where he was a member of the congregation. Witnesses and a police source confirmed Tiller was the victim.
No information has been released about whether a suspect is in custody. Police said they are looking for white male.
Actually whats lovely about this the way the pro-life groups responded to it … “we wish he was punished in another way !” which just goes to say how delusional they areto think that they didn’t have any part in this. when they incite people (may i add children ?!) to act against this “heinous crime against humanity” and do what ever is in their means to stop it, they lose the right to act shocked when the doc is shot.
I’m with you in praying. I hope that the response of pro-life groups may help tone down fringe elements. I especially hope that the rhetoric will be revisited to ensure it doesn’t breed more of this…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31053948
Bam. Bam. For you, and only you, will I sit through ELEVEN minutes of Rachel Maddow. I have been trying to get that thing downloaded for two hours. If you are getting the majority of your information on the pro-life movement from Rachel and Arianna, which you must admit are hardly balanced sources, I may have to prepare my own version for you.
R & A are JUST as bad as far right wingers in their propensity to tweak the news into their own ideology.
MommaBean, i have been doing a lot of reading on this topic today. I am dismayed that the only responses that are covered (then repeated ad nauseum), are the inflammatory fringe.
This must be how Muslims feel when they are labeled as terrorists over the acts of a very few. I am now a ‘domestic terrorist’ because I do not support abortion. @@
kinzi come on, you know me a bit better than that … I linked because it provided a brief reminder of the acts of terrorism that the pro-lifers undertook. It is terrorism by the way because its a politically motivated act of violence done in order to change current policy.
They have succeeded because now doctors feel there is too high of a risk to be in the profession of providing late term abortions, and it takes a bit more digging into the subject to help understand why providing the “choice” for a family to under go such ordeal might be less of a pain than the delivery of a child that will suffer and die shortly after.
Ya Bam,
. Yes, I do know you better than that, but it has been awhile, and that was all you wrote…a paragraph like this helps me out immensely.
So, since you know me too. and can imagine me having this discussion, remember I am animated, but not angry
:
Rachel’s version, focusing on Randall Terry (who left Operation Rescue fifteen years ago, btw ) as THE voice of the pro-life movement is like saying what’s his name-with-the-claw-hand is the spokesman for all Muslims. She (and many others) handily avoided the 100% massive negative outpouring of condemnation and focused on Terry’s response?
I agree that those who killed the doctors should be considered those who commit terror. My mother was terrified at her PP clinic. I was glad Paul Hill got his death sentence.
The outcry was so great in 93-94 that churches began listening to see what the ‘chatter’ was about abortion and would even report people who were sounding ‘off’. Not for the sake of the ‘movement’, but to stop such horrific acts of vengeance.
Knowing how many mentally unstable people there can be in churches, I was not surprised it happened. The church is a microcosm of society, and will have it’s percentage of loonies. Even violent loonies.
Being against abortion, for everyone I know and any org I have worked with, is much more about prayer, caring for pregnant women, helping stocking crisis pregnancy centers so that those who feel they have no choice but to abort due to lack of support and community can have the baby if they want to. I never picketed a clinic.
For some women, they have no choice, as boyfriends, parents and even husbands pressure them to abort. I worked at a shelter for girls in California, I know what it is like for them.
My mother finally quit PP as she realized that she was seeing the same under-age girls with various older men coming in for repeat abortions; PP provided a place to take care of the proceeds of statutory rape.
I don’t see this murder as a success at all. It is a tragedy, top to bottom.
I have been digging, and I have different feelings now than when I wrote this post.
I read the letter from the woman who had a late-term abortion interviewed by Anderson Cooper. The baby was going to die anyway, they said. I could never allow a doctor to partially deliver, and then cut the spinal cord of my living child and suction it’s brains out. Why not just give the dying body the dignity of breathing it’s last intact, cradled in the arms of his mother? Less pain for who? As a mother, I would rather say goodbye face-to-face with pain than to know that baby I carried was lying in a stainless steel pan ready for the bio-hazard bin.
So this opinion now earns me the same label as someone who flies planes into buildings, blows up government buildings in KS, or sends powder to government offices.
For being a peaceful part of the vast majority of the pro-life movement, I am now branded as ‘at risk for domestic terrorism’ for having incited hatred leading to murder.
Help me sort out the emo with some of your logic.
First of all thanks for putting in the time, and sorry if i sounded agressive there totally didn’t mean to.
I’ll try to sort it out into different sections so that i don’t mix things. First of all regarding the terrorism label; I think when a person is labeled the way abortion doctors are labeled and pressure by language and actions to seize their “legal” operations it is a form of terror regardless. there are ways of promoting the services to expecting mothers and providing them the choice since at the end it’s their choice and we should facilitate that choice rather than limit it. When the pro life targets individuals its terrorizing them and their families, do you remember that plane crash a few months ago and the vigil that was held by the pro life ? isn’t what was said heartless and terrorizing ?
abortions in general are not a simple disposal procedure and it takes its total on the mother and her relationships with others, but for some that toll is less damaging than delivering a baby to term that has slim chances of leading a healthy life. practical reasons also play a factor, and i think those situation take a special consideration. on the other hand there is the acidental and unwanted pregrancies, to me those are the symptoms and not the problem. those who become serial abortionists are atleast irresponsible, and wouldn’t provide a healthy enviroment for children and while personally i would rather see them put for adoption i wouldn’t deny those irresponsible accidental mothers a choice.
Before this i didn’t read up on “late term” abortions and the cases or testimonials, and i held the opinion that if its not life threatning to the mother’s life i would rather see those babies see the light of day. From what i’ve seen about how things are treated i realized that those who consider it tend to be more often the cases that can truly justify a case for not delivering and made me reconsider my position about it.
At the end of the day there is one thing i never understood about the pro life movement and would appreciate if you can provide me an understanding of it; why do they try to take the choice away from people ? most of the cases i see them exemplify are symptoms rather than causes of the problem, why not focus on promoting the options and educating individuals ? I believe than inidividuals in a society should bare responsibility for their choices, whether bad or good, and goverment regulations should keep out of people’s personal life. Isn’t that the republican libertarian view ? why is it that abortion is an exception then ?
get what i’m saying ? i don’t think abortions are a “good” thing, just a necessary evil.
(interestingly enough islam isn’t against abortion in the first trimester, baby doesn’t have a soul, or when a mother’s life is threatened)
Oh my, I’m so sorry to read about what your mother had to endure, sending girls to a rapist…..
I once went to a party and ended up talking to a doctor who had left the medical profession. When I asked her why, she had worked for a place that did abortions and actually killed fetuses that were born alive. She told me about how two fetuses were brought to her in a pan, and she was told to “drown them.” When she refused, her boss poured in a glass of water to “smother” them. She was so upset she had to actually leave the medical profession and have a nervous breakdown.
No doubt we have a need for abortion. But I think most people are opposed to late-term abortions. I now understand what my doctor-uncle told me many years ago when I was in my late teens: an abortion decision should be left entirely between a woman and her doctor.
When I was young, I used to be pro-abortion. I never thought I owuld change my opinion, but I did after going through pregnancy and parenthood. Now I am more pro-life, but see that there are cases abortion is necessary. It’s not up to us to judge others.
Eileen
Dedicated Elementary Teacher Overseas
elementaryteacher.wordpress.com
Here id the transcript of a later Cooper interview with a women who chose to carry her child (I’ll be back later)
The full transcript of Cooper interview’s interview of Diane Elder, which began 20 minutes into the 10 pm Eastern hour of Tuesday’s “Anderson Cooper 360” program:
ANDERSON COOPER: Diane Elder chose not to have an abortion, even though, medically and legally, she had every right to. She joins us now, and Diane, thanks so much for being with us. You actually sent me an e-mail earlier today because of- of an interview you read that we had on last night. We had a woman on who, in the 20- 20th or 21st week, chose to have a late-term abortion, because her baby had a severe- severe genetic defect. You had a similar situation. You made a different choice. Why?
DIANE ELDER, CHOSE NOT TO HAVE LATE-TERM ABORTION: Because I wanted my baby to have a natural death. I did not want my child to die at my hands. She-
COOPER: What did your baby have?
ELDER: My baby had a- had a syndrome called Trisomy 18, which is a very severe chromosomal abnormality that is incompatible with life. That’s what — that’s the phrase doctors used to me.
COOPER: And you found this out what- at what stage of the pregnancy?
ELDER: I was somewhere in the fifth month of pregnancy.
COOPER: And, obviously, I mean, it’s devastating news.
ELDER: It was devastating. I found out on Mother’s Day, and all I can remember is collapsing to the floor, because I had been trying for this baby for a very long time. So, it felt like a cruel- almost a cruel joke to me that this happened. And so, I- I went forward with the pregnancy another four months, probably the most difficult four months of my life. We were prepared for basically a- a monster, because we were told she was going to not have a brain, and she was going to have possibly cleft palate, club feet, and she was born with all those things. She was born missing part of her brain. She had one club foot, one rocker-bottom foot. She had just everything that goes along with that condition, which is- is bad.
But we were very taken aback when we found that, when she was placed in our arms, we were happy. We were- we were incredibly happy. And my husband was with me. A lot of family and friends showed up right after the birth. She was passed around from arm to- from arms to arms. I told the hospital I did not want any extraordinary measures taken, because I wanted what happened to her to be natural. I didn’t want to try to- to force her to stay alive with needles and tubes, if that would cause her pain and just prolong a very difficult life. But I didn’t want to kill her either. So, I just decided to completely turn myself over to nature and let it take its course, and the resolution was really a very good resolution. She- she never suffered.
COOPER: How long did she live?
ELDER: Twelve hours. The nurse woke me up at 5 am, and said, ‘Diane, I think you might want to get up now. The baby’s having trouble breathing, and this might be her time, and she put Angela into my arms.
COOPER: You named her?
ELDER: Yes, Angela- Angela Diane Elder, and Angela looked- it was funny, because she was able to make eye contact with me, and it seemed as though she were looking into my eyes. I could hear her breath becoming more and more shallow, sort of a rattling breath, and then she took two large breaths, and then a very large breath, literally sat up, and then fell back, and she was gone. And it was a very difficult moment, even at this time.
COOPER: Do you- do you regret it, looking back on it?
ELDER: Not in one- not one minute of it. She died peacefully, with no pain. The suffering was ours. For two weeks, of course, at least two weeks, really a whole year, we were in mourning for her, as you would grieve over any loved one who dies. That’s a normal part of life. You can’t get away from the fact that- that people die and people get sick, and they die. And- but we felt very clean when it was over, and- and as though the situation was- there was closure. There was a resolution, and-
COOPER: Obviously, other women, other families in that situation make different choices.
ELDER: Right.
COOPER: Do you believe that- that women should have the right to make that choice?
ELDER: When a baby is a fully formed, living baby, I don’t think that, really, we have ever had the choice to- to take a life at that stage. I think that- that’s a — that’s a fully-formed baby. I mean, I think you had some of the pictures up there, and you saw her. She’s a fully-formed baby. She was born early, by the way. She came out at eight months.
COOPER: And, when you heard about Dr. Tiller’s death, your thought?
ELDER: Oh, I think that was awful. No one has the right to do that, particularly not someone who considers themselves to be an advocate for life. How can they take another life? It’s inexcusable.
COOPER: Well, I- I appreciate you coming on and talking about this. I know it’s not easy, and I appreciate you writing the e-mail to me and- and that we were able to have you on today. Thank you very much.
ELDER: Thank you so much.
COOPER: Thanks. Thanks for your strength.
Hi Bam, still sorting and mulling over your comment. You never cease to make me think.
Elementary Teacher, welcome back! That is one harrowing story, but not at all unusual. Many doctors going into the profession do so in order to help life happen, extend life, save life. Abortion plain goes against the Hippocratic Oath of ‘doing no harm’.
It is easy to say we shouldn’t judge others, and there is logic and even biblical truth in that. Judging others happens at every level of human interaction. I do a lot of judging on my blog, as do most bloggers.
I don’t think that the ending of a life, especially one so close to survival outside the womb, is a neutral thing. I am hearing you say the same thing, tending toward pro-life as a mother yourself.
I started as a pro-choice activist. I went to Planned Parenthood conferences with my mom. They discussed ways to increase their ‘profitability’ even though a non-profit organization. They talked about the higher levels of income to be made by giving teens birth control that was more likely to fail.
The majority of abortions done are for the convenience of the mother, not the health. Even this woman who chose a late-term abortion chose not to go through the pain and trauma of giving birth and allowing her longed-for baby to die of natural causes. It was easier for her to be done with it.
I agree with your doctor/uncle that it is a choice to be made between a doctor and mother. But a teen who is biologically old enough to get pregnant may not be able to make a wise decision no matter how informed she is. She is still a dependent. she obviously blew it in the birth control department she needs the counsel of others. A doctor is one part of that wisdom, but those who practice abortion do make their living from it, and may not have the best interests of the patient primary.
My friends, who had abortions that my mother arranged, did not inform their parents (the parents didn’t even know the girls were sexually active, since there was no consent). She arranged for my brother to transport them to a neighboring state during school. He said he finally refused to continue as the girls hemmoraged, screamed in pain, wept in despair. They didn’t know what the choice cost them until after it was over.
Some of my friends were not bothered by their abortions, but some were deeply affected, especially after they became parents. Some were never able to have children, and wondered if it was a result of their abortion.
It’s getting late, thanks for letting me process as I write, and visiting with your opinion.
I agree… Tiller was doing what he could, within the law, to protect the lives of his patients, even though it meant killing less-developed humans. Murdering him was wrong. Crazies like Roeder need to be exterminated instead.
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