Jad thought this would make an interesting post. It’s one of those uncomfortable topics that pop up when one has cute, unattached gal-pals friends while living in this part of the world.
One begins to receive proposals on their behalf. People started seriously asking about my daughter when she was about six months old. I still get them on occasion, from toothless old taxi drivers. When I say no, they then try offering money. As if some things can be bought.
I have no problem facilitating cross-cultural love-matches, so it isn’t a racist issue. I have enjoyed helping and watching a least a dozen happen among guys and girls who are mature, intelligent, understanding. There are several Jordanian girls I would be very happy to have as daughter-in-law some day.
But the one thing that they must have in common for my seal of approval is faith.
Just as I would not try and set up a Muslim girl with a Christian man, because it is forbidden to her, neither would I set up a Muslim man with a Christian girl, because it is forbidden to her. I explain that carefully, thinking it is a deal breaker for anyone who respects the religious mandates of others.
Even so, I hear this: “No, don’t worry, it’s ok for us to marry Christian women”. OK, I say, that is not the issue, even if it is ok for you, it is NOT ok for her as a believing Christian. If she does, she is disobeying her faith. Heart hunger can at times cloud spiritual clarity.
Without fail, the very next thing I hear is: “Well, she can convert, can’t she?”
The Bible is clear that Christians are to marry only Christians. It is called “being equally yoked”. The imagery from the agrarian society of the time is very appropriate: two equally matched animals pull the load together best. Families and marriages can be heavy responsibilities at times. If one is weaker, the work will not get done, plowing the field will be a messy business. If one goes off on another path, the yolk will break. Yolk two different kinds of animals, and someone is going to get hurt.
It is a bit awkward to hear such a statement. Even a bit of an insult, as if it was just changing an outfit or hair color. Sure, some Christian women have gladly converted as a result of dissatisfaction with their faith, but not just to marry. For those I know, it was a choice based on study, intellectual assent as well as that of heart. Just like I know some who have converted the other way. Live and let live, khallas.
Some Christian girls were in a place that faith wasn’t a life-defining value then, and they realized later down the line that it would become an important issue in raising a family, even if they chose not to follow either religion. I have heard from some that their husbands just assumed they would convert at some point. One blogger, some time ago, wrote about her cross-religious marriage and was very happy. Neither spouse was strongly religious, so it was a good meeting of mind and heart. But not here in Jordan (family intervention of both faiths can interfere), and she is the only one so far I’ve met.
A SAGA friend told of going into a shop at Abdoun Mall, and having the older proprietor ask about her marital status. Being new in the country, she just answered ‘no’ and continued looking. He then told her he had a son who needed a wife, and wanted to go to America, and would she be interested. Then the wife came from the back room, and joined the conversation. My friend was a little creeped out by the boldness of a stranger, and said “No thank you, I am a Christian, I will marry a Christian when the time is right”. Again, she thought that would do it, but the woman then launched into a loud and condescending evangelistic presentation of her faith, and how my friend needed to convert (then marry the son so he could get a US passport). Oh yes, he was a ‘wardeh’. That is the word spoken by a mom that should set a girl of any faith RUNNING. My friend hurried away and never set foot in that mall again.
For us, we don’t see ourselves as Muslims who just need to revert to our original condition, but sinners in need of a Saviour. We don’t see our faith as part of an extension to Islam, or a usurped middle-man between Judaism and Islam: Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of our faith. We know Muslims love Jesus too, as a prophet, and look forward to His second coming. That is cool to have in common, but He is more than a prophet to us.
So, help us out and apply our rules to our faith just like you apply rules to your faith in terms of love relationships, just out of mutual respect and community cohesion.
Just thought you might want to know, since Jad was curious too. 
(FA, so, I am still looking for a suitable wife for Jad, ladies. Give me a hand here, Sisters in Amman. I think she should be: spiritual, intellectual, cute, strong, articulate, respectful, playful and a good cook.
I agree that Muslims should marry Muslims even if they are allowed to marry others. It just roots out a lot potential issues which are bound to come up in the raising of children and other things that normally happen in marriages. Being in the SAME book sure helps when you are trying to be on the same page. But Allah knows what is best and surely there are reasons for every rule and its exception.
This is first time I have heard from a Christian that Christians cannot marry Muslims. It makes sense when you think about it, but I have seen it done so many times that I haven’t thought of it on Christian side of the issue before. I guess it depends on if the person is practicing their religion.
Thanks for an interesting post. How is old is Jad? What are his particulars…you’ve got me thinking. I only rarely read his blog, so I don’t know. I figure Nas should be on our list as well, don’t you think?
Hi,
I’m a Muslim and I’m very frustrated at the fact that some people use religion as a catalist for their personal agendas.
Also it’s not just allowed for Muslim men to marry Christian women because of the fundamental difference in belief – Muslims don’t believe in the Trinity. Muslim men often abuse or misinterpret Islamic laws to suit their own desires, just as they do with the decree on Polygamy.
Nonetheless, good on you for having a vigilant eye for these “users”.
agree
Kinzi, you mentioned something very important “I have heard from some that their husbands just assumed they would convert at some point.” I think couples with interfaith marriage don’t plan beyond the two of them. The big issue is KIDS of course. I am sure such couples never discussed what religion they will teach their kids before they get involved otherwise, they would just break up or may be end up with one of them converting his/her religion.
. Because of these movies many think that Christians are not attached to their religion and hence can just simply convert to Islam. I have a long time Christian friend who wakes up every day at 6am or before to read the Bible. He doesn’t drink or go to bars but I guess you don’t see such character on Hollywood movies or maybe you see him as a mentally twisted person.
On a side note, Hollywood movies are what Jordanians are exposed to. Unfortunately, many Jordanian men watch these movies and think they can flirt with any girl and sleep with her because they are easy, as depicted on movies, and because of their Burt Reynolds or Tom Selleck thick dark charming Jordanian mustache
I don’t like to write long comment but I think the subject is really very important.
Everything you say makes sense and I agree. But I am curious about the Christians not allowed to marry Muslims rule you mention. I have heard it before from Arab christians, but I know that this is not universal in Christendom, Christian women marry Muslim men (my Mum included) and they get married in church i.e. the church approved their union. So, I gather not all Christians are forbidden from marrying non-Christians?
LoL! what a scandal.
Well, I asked because I read that Christians cannot marry but Christians, even here you didn’t quote any text. or is it a priest fatwa?
You are sure right about cross-religious marriages being different in Jordan from how they are in North America! Living in Jordan presented challenges that living back home sure had not prepared us for. Back home I wouldn’t have even defined myself as a Christian, I usually said agnostic when asked, but try saying that in Jordan! lol For the first time since I was a child I was calling myself a Christian again and my previously nominally Muslim husband was again a Muslim. Sure changes the dynamics!
Hey all, will get back to you tomorrow. Great comments!
Jad, lol, scandal! that I am asking the Sisters to Get You In The Loop? You are right, I didn’t not include the biblical foundation, and I will do some study tomorrow to give you a better answer.
Priest-fatwa, LOL!!
To use your terms, I am a product of a cross-religious marriage. In my terms, I would call myself the daughter of a marriage of love.
My parents are my ultimate source of inspiration. They seem to understand – to lavish – life in a way few people ever do. They love, they care, they nurture… but more than anything, they inspire, with their idiosyncratic ways, the diversity of their views and approaches to life. My father is logical, reasonable, neat and tidy. My mother is unreasonable in the most beautiful of ways, artistic, and passionate. Their differences of faith, to me, are just another piece of the colourful jigsaw i have known as home.
I am thankful I was not born into a standard family. I am glad I had an upbringing that made me allergic to being boxed and prevents me from boxing others.
Being yoked equally can be a happy, stable path to those who choose it, but it is not the only path to happiness, and it certainly is not the only path to intellectualism or civilisation. Those who choose a marriage of love are not weak in their faith as you imply Kinzi, or selfish people as jaraad also alarmingly comments. Those who choose the path of love epitomise what humanity can be, when it chooses to rise above its own prejudices.
Definitions of love are plentiful… and I am not saying that religious-based marriages are not love marriages, for many such married couples are happy under their own understanding of love.
So dear jaraad, you are entitled to your own path and marriage choices in life. But please do not judge those who have sacrificed theirs for love. They, unlike you, do not see life in terms of planning, but rather, in terms of meaning. they have come to know a force so scarce that very few human beings are privy to it. It is a force that changes time, place and history. A force for tomorrow, not one for those who cling to today in fear.
Sorry for the long comment.
Kinzi, excellent post. Agree on all points and will be interested to read your biblical foundation. I know the verse you are talking about, but don’t have my Bible in the same part of the house, annoying squeaky-kid-waking-doors strike again, teehee.
Kinzi,
Surely, this is an issue of personal choice, and in the same way that people sharing one faith does not guarantee the success of a marriage, neither does having different faiths condemn a marriage to failure.
I happen to be very happily married to a Muslim, have considered that my children will be brought up Muslim, and happy for them to be so, knowing full well that my children will ultimately be who they want to be. I believe it’s the job of parents to teach their children universal values which will serve them and the world well, and that bringing them up within anyone particular faith will not guarantee their success and hapiness anymore than bringing them up in another.
Christian Arabs have strong Muslim influences by virtue of the dominant culture. This is not to deny anyone their attachment to their faith, but to say that being in an inter-faith marriage in the Arab world is not as difficult as it may seem from the outside looking in. It certainly has not been for me.
I do believe that Muslim women should also be allowed to marry Christian men, because I believe that everyone should be allowed to marry anyone of their choosing. While this may not be legally permited, I know of many people who have found a way to make it happen for themselves.
Since it is culturally and religiously acceptable in the Muslim world for Muslim men to marry Christian women, this only increases the possibility of people marrying the person of their choosing, and that, in my opinion, is a cause for celebration, not lament.
Kinzi,
Yalla, I’m waiting. See, it’s 2:43AM and I’m still waiting for an answer :p
Kinzi,
and you tweeted the post too! 3an jad scandal
@ Um Omar, loolt, Jad… There is considerable debate among Christians on this topic. The difference is largely between, on the one hand, those who believe that Christians can marry whomever they choose, and, on the other hand, those who bother to read their Bible and care what it says -.-
I’d put in supporting evidence from the Bible for this claim, but Kinzi will certainly do it much more capably than I would.
To me the saddest thing about this is not the inter-faith issue, although it’s an important one. I would always get furious with muslim men who would ask me about expat/Christian women I was with, because the very fact that they asked me, and the way they chose to do it, indicated that they did not view women as independent human beings with the right to make their own decisions. Although it faces stiff competition (and although I’m a dude and not really qualified to comment on this), I believe that this pervasive attitude, so accepted as to never even be questioned, might be the most grievously offensive thing I encountered during my time in the Middle East.
Btw kinzi please make a post on the topic of “priest-fatwa” so I can comment at my usual exhaustive length
(kidding)
from my readings of christianity i’ve never seen anything that says a christian cannot marry a muslim. as for a “non-believer” and yoke…i guess you’re referring to corinthians? i cant remember the exact scripture but, to the best of my knowledge, i remember the story being in the context of referring to idol worshipers, which muslims obviously are not.
secondly, while islam allows for males to marry females who belong to the people of the book (chrisitans and jews, Al-Ma’idah: 6), it tends to discourage such marriages.
theology aside…and delving in to the cultural elements that you are describing throughout this post (which are two different things)…i would argue that most muslims, such as those living in jordan, tend to only use islam when it suits their needs. in this case its being used to get what they want.
i would argue that in most cases they want to marry either your daughter or your friend because their skin color, hair color, eye color and accents all suggest that they’re not exactly from around here. thus marrying their sons to such people is a golden way to get them a green card and out of jordan.
it’s not always as simple as that, but i would argue that it usually is, and in your case i would further argue that it most probably is.
next time someone offers you a marriage proposal tell them you know a jordanian girl from bayt so-and-so who is christian and is looking. if they react positively then you know they’re for real. if they react negatively then it’s because all they’re seeing is green.
that is the moment where culture and society splits from religious belief.
Thanks everyone, for their additional viewpoints, especially to Raghda and Deena for a personal take on the topic. When I am done with my housework, I’ll get back to the thread.
Jad, shu, enta mish naiyem bi 2:43am?? Not even the Sisters can find a bride that fast.
Dear Deena,
Being a product of a happy cross-religious marriage would definitely make you upset of what I said. I admit it, what I said was judgmental and I generalized which is something I don’t normally do. For that I say I am sorry. Yet, I think your parent’s situation is the exception not the norm. By the way you said “I am glad I had an upbringing that made me allergic to being boxed and prevents me from boxing others.” Yet you managed to put me in a very tiny plain box through your defensive comment.
@ TenaciousB
“indicated that they did not view women as independent human beings with the right to make their own decisions.”
I think this is right-on, but it is also across-the-board an issue relating to men in general, not just Muslim men looking for a western wife. It also carries over to the mommies of these men, who just want a “wife for their sons” without considering the repercussions of these quick-fix marriages. Or, without considering the repercussions of marriages that have been planned for years, like cousins marrying and the like. I think that we women today expect more communication and mutal respect, and that the days of just ‘settling’ for whomever are fading. At least, I hope so.
Wow, this is one of the best discussions in a long time. I am looking forward to more on the subject.
I’ve been going to church as of late (weird, I know), and I think there’s definitely lack of consensus on this issue. I mean, there usually tends to be *official* consensus, but at the end of the day, most priests will accept the fact that we live in the real world, where we don’t always choose who we fall in love with.
Then again, I doubt I’d have a church-sanctioned wedding anyway, regardless of who I married, so it may be easy for me to talk.
Just wanted to stop back in with a few thoughts.
Nas, I’m glad to see you’ve joined the conversation. I have to say that while Jesus did not prohibit marriage with those of other faiths, the biblical references do make it strongly advised against (nigh on to forbidden). This occurs in both Corinthians 1 and 2. The fundamental belief of Christians is in Christ as the Redeemer. While Islam may recognize Jesus as a Prophet, that is not the same as the fundamental belief being discussed. Believers are those who see Christ as their personal Savior. Muslims would not fall into that category. Your belief system, while perhaps similar in regards to many moral beliefs, relies on a very different pretext for salvation. Working towards such very different goals can produce significant strife and upheaval. While some may make it work, most will have difficulty at it.
I also wanted to drop a quick reponse to a comment of Deena’s. Deena, it sounds like you grew up in a stable and loving home with a diverse faith experience. That is excellent. For most people in that situation that I have known (regardless of the faiths involved), typically one is granted status as “the” faith (the one the kids are raised in). However, I take great issue with your premise as stated “I am not saying that religious-based marriages are not love marriages, for many such married couples are happy under their own understanding of love. ” Whoa, here. Are you implying that anyone who chooses to marry someone of their faith is deluded and doesn’t know what love is? In the US, we have an old joke… it’s as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor one. And, while it’s a joke, it makes clear that point that choosing to fall in love with someone is, in fact, a choice. When I entered into relationships, religious status was not the first or only thing I looked at. But, it was a core fundamental for me. I don’t honestly know how you would define a “religious-based” marriage. But, I did not consider marrying someone of a different faith. The challenges there are too great for me. I would be unable to spend my life in the firm belief that my spouse is not saved. I would feel the constant need to “evangelize” my husband. My heart is caused great pain by close fiends whom I know are unbelievers. And, herein lies the strife-causing element. So, I married someone I love who also is a member of my faith. By sheer chance, I managed to find one of the teeny-tiny minority who shares my denomination as well. It wasn’t a necessity, but sure has made things easier.
My last wee comment is that I do agree that legally, anyone of any faith should be able to marry as they choose. The state shouldn’t care where or how one is married. But, then I come from a background of separation of church and state and freedom of religion…
@ jaraad thank you very much for your response, I appreciate that you took the time to clarify. In hindsight, I realise my comment ran longer than it should have, and I apologise if I was defensive. However, I still cannot see how I boxed you; I just pointed out that you will, inshalla, live a happy and loving married life if you follow the path of your choice – I did not try to tell you what is right, what works, or how you should live your life or get married. There are myriad paths to happiness, some intersect. I was just trying to show that those who choose a different path also do so because they believe it is right, not because they only think of themselves. Again, I am sorry if you feel I boxed you, maybe we even have different understandings of what being boxed is
@ MommaBean that is exactly what I meant ‘NOT’ to say by writing that. I wanted to avoid anyone thinking that I am claiming a monopoly over love. It obviously had the opposite effect and I apologise
So of course people who pursue faith-based marriages love each other, I wanted to stress the point, not question it. However, the definition of love which propels them to pursue a faith-based marriage, would be different to my understanding of love. I am not saying one kind of love is better than the other, all I am saying is that each comes with a different set of values and therefore suits different people.
However, unlike inter-faith marriages, same-faith marriages are not continuously put on the defensive by dismissing them as ‘wrong’. Just as there are advantages to same-faith marriages, I was trying to point out that there are advantages to inter-faith marriage too.
Hi all, got my housework done and visitors just left…I am traveling soon so don’t have the screen time I usually enjoy. It’s a tough day when freezing food for the fam trumps a good thread blogging, bas alas, hayk al hayat.
@Jad, I’ll start with you and what I came up with. The importance of mutual faith in marriage really begins in the beginning in Genesis, but that will come later.
Since Christian origins begin in the Old Testament, I went back to God’s revelation of His character to Moses in Exodus 34. Verse 16 warns against one of the biggee sins (one that the Jewish people later committed routinely), and that was marrying their sons and daughters to the inhabitants of the land will cause them to worship the pagan gods of the land.
It has always been a given in both faiths that one marries in their own faith. Those who did not were mentioned negatively, some were forced to divorce them. The multiplying of pagan wives is what caused King David’s heart to turn away from God at the end of his life.
1st Corinthians 7:13-14 is the passage Nas was referring to. This is the letter of the Apostle Paul to the church he founded in Corinth. although it was a pagan Greek city then, Paul began his ministry in the synagogues. The church would have a mix of former pagan and Jewish believers, so when he refers to unbelief, it is not only belief in pagan gods, but also Judaism. Belief in Jesus Christ’s substitutionary death as atonement for sin was the key. He was referring to new believers in Christ who had spouses who were either pagan or Jewish:
“if a woman has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband”.
Later speaking of remarriage after the death of a spouse, Paul said: “bit if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whomever she wishes, but only in the Lord.” Only to another believer.
In instructing the church how to care for widows, he mentions in I Timothy 4:8 that ‘if anyone does not provide for his own family, he has denied his faith and is worse than an unbeliever”. The implication that all involved were believers.
In Ephesians 5:25, “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify it and cleanse it with the washing of the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and blameless. So husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.”
A man who is not a follower of Christ cannot love his wife by Christ’s standard. He is to be willing to die for her.
Christianity is not passed down by birth, it is a choice each follower makes on his own. When a Christian woman marries outside her faith here, her children will not have that choice legally.
(MORE TOMORROW….)
Deena, I just saw your new comment and wanted to say I am very much desiring to give a thoughtful reply. I am sorry for causing offense, or defense, especially to you and Raghda being personal examples of the other side of the coin.
I hope to have more detail tomorrow. If I can get packed
I want to comment about the parts of this discussion that refer to children of interfaith marriages, because this is one of the most crucial elements of the discussion for me. I know of many interfaith marriages in the States, including marriages of believers and agnostics or atheists, where the religious upbringing of the children has been a serious problem that divides families. I have also known families where religious diversity has made them stronger. So the religious upbringing of my potential children is always one of the 5 minimum requirements with which I respond to every serious marriage proposal in Jordan. (It started out as a defense mechanism, but over time I’ve discovered just how deeply those 5 requirements matter to me. I’ve blogged about this before, but don’t know how to link to it here.)
It is my 5th and last requirement that is usually the deal-breaker, and it’s the one that’s pertinent here. I am not particularly concerned with the faith that my husband will profess. It’s a personal choice I can’t make for him. But I am very much concerned with his intention for our children. I want to raise my children with knowledge of all faiths, and the freedom to choose any of them. Not just the big 3 – Christianity, Islam and Judaism – but any of them: Hinduism, Taoism, Wicca, Buddhism … or no religion at all. And of my 5 minimum requirements, I have come to believe that this one is the most important to me.
Um Omar, it seems many people haven’t heard as well, which was one reason I posted this. To me, even with a pagan background, and had to do with mutual value of faith. It does only make sense, the more one has in common with one’s spouse, the better (the difference between men and women is a big enough!)
Zulfa, welcome and thank you for commenting! I know the frustration well. TV preachers who have private jets, then beg for money from poor widows? I think that is why Jesus was so hard on religious rulers, He knew the inner motivations of heart, and how easy it is to disguise selfish ambition under the guise of religious piety. We ladies have to watch it, too.
(more coming, as I pack!)
I think we should be careful about the broad use of “Christian” and what a Christian is “allowed” to do – it’s clear the term can refer to people who have been brought up in a nominally Christian culture but who are not “practising” as such, as well as believers from a wide variety of denominations, which have different stances when it comes to marriage “outside”. For example, here is the Catholic take on marrying non-Catholics:
http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/marriagefaqs.shtml
Deena, thanks for this civilized conversation
Kinzi, it turned out that this post is really useful I learned few things from your post, comment, and the readers comments.
Pingback: Global Voices Online » Jordan: Religion Vs Marriage
@ Hamede: cool.
@ Jaraad: I am really glad you both enjoyed the discussion and learned something new. I am also glad you participated!
The kids issue IS huge, although I have found that most couples do discuss it at length. The problem is that spiritual life is not static, it is either growing or fading. During the wonderful times of early love, part of what makes it beautiful is the compromise and sacrifice one is making for another. A discussion at this point is a very different kind of discussion than will happen when romantic love has ebbed a bit, kids come and parents are busy with responsibilities. Often times making the step toward marriage and having children makes spouses more religious than they were before, and that impacts the dynamic of the relationship on all fronts. Cross-faith marriages need to keep talking, as do same-faith marriages.
I can relate to the Hollywood-Defines-Christians to the East problem. It is the same as the Hollywood Defines Muslims to the West problem. When I first came to Jordan, a neighbor said: “Oh, a Christian from California! I watch a TV program about people like you, ‘Baywatch’”. to them, Christianity was synonymous with immoral. America is a post-Christian secular country. Good for your friend, rising early to read the Bible. I need to do that more often.
@loolt, well said. There are vast differences, but in general, the more traditional churches hold to a stricter paradigm of faith expression. You will find Catholic and Orthodox and Evangelical churches adhere to the view that it is not an acceptable practice, and the priest/pastor will not marry such a couple.
Most will not marry even same-faithed people until they have gone through an extensive pre-marital counseling program to make sure a couple is in love and has a good foundation to build a marriage upon. It is wise, as the same priest/pastor will be the one they come to when they are considering divorce.
For Catholics, marriage is a very solemn, unbreakable vow that is actually a sacrament toward salvation. If a Catholic marries a non-Catholic, the Catholic is not allowed to receive the Mass and is therefore in a state of mortal sin, meaning upon death there is little hope for his salvation.
In my first marriage, the priest who married us was Episcopalian. In our ‘pre-marital counseling’, he was much more interested in the fact that I was studying Wicca with my future mother-in-law than ascribing to the tenants of the Christian convenant of marriage. If he had spent more time advising two very stupid 20 and 21 years in lust, i doubt we would have gone through with it. Thank God we didn’t have chlidren.
You and Deena are great examples of positive outcome from an inter-faith marriage. I have also met many who experienced very negative outcomes too.
I hope to get back to all the other commenters when I get to Chicago.
Thanks for returning to visit and continue conversation of a very tough subject, and a special welcome to Global Voices On-Line readers.
Bint Batutta, quickly, thank you for the link. I think my information on some Catholic practice is from a pre-Vatican II source, so for those interested check the link.
Good advice to be careful. Practicing is what makes a difference, and so does what culture. In Jordan, there are Christians who still practice dishonor killings if a daughter is involved with a Muslim. One of the murders earlier this year was such a situation.
I am Catholic, and prior to getting married to my Muslim husband, we consulted the church in Amman and in the UK where my sister lives, and in both cases the response was that although the Catholic Church prefers marriage between Catholics, it does not prohibit marriage to people of other Monotheistic religions. They also said that while a person marrying a non-Catholic would have been ex-communicated in the past, this is no longer the case.
Raghda,
As per definition, that is a Fatwa.
Jad,
I guess that makes me a priest then?
Raghda
Raghda, my Catholic in-laws confirm that my information is pre-Vatican II, so next stop is asking my bro-in-law the priest (the family fatwa-issuer), just to ask the history behind the change and what he advises couples in his parish. Another relatives’ dad was barred from taking communion his whole life for marrying a Methodist.
My husband is a former Catholic, and caused a minor familial uproar for leaving the church. Marrying me, the divorced evangelical, was an issue that was also ‘forbidden’ at one point, as it was also considered an interfaith marriage. My blessed departed mother-in-love was always throwing holy water on me and the kids, who we did not baptize at birth (our tradition is to wait until they choose to follow Christ themselves). She did accept me a a true Christian, and my sis-in-law did find a priest who said we may actually get to heaven after all, even not being in the Cath church.
I’ll be interested to talk to you more about it when I get back to Jordan, just for my own understanding (not blogging about), I am curious about your family’s response, and how you and your hubby talked the issues through. I am sure it would help some people I know.
I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, yet it would take a very special couple to be able to make it work practically. I am not sure the couples I know who, especially the wives, would agree that it is as simple as you state.
“I do believe that Muslim women should also be allowed to marry Christian men, because I believe that everyone should be allowed to marry anyone of their choosing. While this may not be legally permited, I know of many people who have found a way to make it happen for themselves.”
I love the idea of people marrying for love, and being able to choose. I also love the familial input of Jordanians in the matter (not the extreme involvement, but input). I don’t know any Muslim woman who has married a Christian man and been able to remain in Jordan, or escape serious familal wrath.
I am glad that if your children chose to follow Christ later in life, they would have your support in their choices.
“Since it is culturally and religiously acceptable in the Muslim world for Muslim men to marry Christian women, this only increases the possibility of people marrying the person of their choosing, and that, in my opinion, is a cause for celebration, not lament. ”
This is cause for celebration for those who love one another, and friends who rejoice with them. I still rejoice with you that you have found a wonderful man who cherishes you, and I am sure part of what he loves about you is how you have manifested Christ’s love and mandate in helping others.
@ NikkiK “Back home I wouldn’t have even defined myself as a Christian, I usually said agnostic when asked, but try saying that in Jordan! lol For the first time since I was a child I was calling myself a Christian again and my previously nominally Muslim husband was again a Muslim.”
Although some may say this sounds stereotypical, it is a pattern I have seen over and over again. I thought how ironic it was for you to come to the point of identifying yourself as agnostic, working that through with your family, and then coming to Jordan, and having to identity yourself as a Christian again.
@ Jad, weren’t you the one who told me to tweet my posts? I still don’t really get this whole tweeting thing.
@ Tenacious: “because the very fact that they asked me, and the way they chose to do it, indicated that they did not view women as independent human beings with the right to make their own decisions…I believe that this pervasive attitude, so accepted as to never even be questioned, might be the most grievously offensive thing I encountered during my time in the Middle East.” Indeed.
@ Nas: “i would argue that most muslims, such as those living in jordan, tend to only use islam when it suits their needs. in this case its being used to get what they want.”
It is sad when people pick and choose from their religion to get what they want. Any religion. I am sure I do it myself.
“i would argue that in most cases they want to marry either your daughter or your friend because their skin color, hair color, eye color and accents all suggest that they’re not exactly from around here. thus marrying their sons to such people is a golden way to get them a green card and out of jordan.”
Agreed. Several most definately wanted lighter skinned grandkids much more than they cared about my spiritual ‘lostness’. You can say all that, but when I say it, I am called a racist. Or something.
Funny, I would quite like get some darker skin in the kounouz future gene pool, it would save on the horrendous amount of sunscreen we have to buy.
@ Natalia, thanks for the Russian Orthodox viewpoint for the mix. I am glad for you to find peace and comfort in the church in these days, and I am not surprised (I spent an hour kneeling in a Catholic church with my sis-in-law in contemplative prayer yesterday) . You seem to be a spiritual person who really doesn’t tow the party-line religiously, journalistic-ly, or ideologically (with some of your feminist friends).
My pastor explained it this way: there was biblical orthodoxy, and pastoral interpretation. Some wounded sheep in the flock just needed special care.
Deena, I am still mentally composing a response, and ran out of time. Traveling tomorrow, back on Sunday to post it.
Now I have been reading this post and its comments for almost an hour -trying to let all the input sink in.
This issue is so important – and I have several comments – so lets see if I can remember them all
Last things first…
@Kinzi: “I don’t know any Muslim woman who has married a Christian man and been able to remain in Jordan, or escape serious familal wrath”.
I have a good friend, an American Christian man, who just married a Jordanian woman. They fell in love a year ago, and ever since they have been trying to figure out how to be able to be together. Both of their families approve of their love, and has been trying to help them make it work. He ended up converting on paper (because, as it has been mentioned several times in the post and comments – Muslim women can’t marry non-Muslim men). He did read a lot in the quran before converting, making sure, that he could accept its content, but still – he converted for love, not for faith (so I guess I know an ex-Christian who married a Muslim woman).
@Deena: I love your comments and perspectives. I totally agree with you – and I too would always put love first.
I respect people being religious and making their choices based on that, and finding love and partners through that perspective. But I also believe that people are not the same, and that their isn’t ONE true answer that works for all of us. For me – love is not something that I am capable of choosing, it just is. I can’t choose who I love – for better and for worse. As it was mentioned in one of the comments, being in a same faith marriage does make many things easier, and indeed – men and women are very different, so why add more complications? But in the end – at least for me – I believe in love more than anything else, and I choose to believe, that love is possible – in any type of faith relation. Maybe I’m being naive, but I refuse to give up on this. We are all humans, and we should be able to be with the ones we fall in love with – same faith or not.
Question: Can Muslims legally convert to Christianity in Jordan? Does it mean loss of citizenship?
Hi TeeBee, welcome to my blog. No, conversion is not an option for Muslims in Jordan. One who does will not lose citizenship, but many who do convert leave to countries where they can practice freely. They will lose marriages, children and familial and community status.
Came across this today and it reminded me of this discussion, thought you might find it an interesting read
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/pamela_k_taylor/2010/07/compatibility_more_important_than_religion_in_marriage.html
Deena, thanks for remembering this thread and bringing more detail! I look forward to reading it.